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Cerberus
Connecticut,
USA
Posts: 5,163
Premier Member
Enthusiast
20 Feb 2008 04:23 |
You may not care, but i must speak my bit just the same.
I loved my Daytona.. i still miss it, though it was not perfect.
I can accept a fair bit of "character" in a vehicle, but the whole getting lost between gears thing was a bit unnerving.
That issue aside, it was a great motorcycle, and i wish i still owned it.
I sincerely wish you would you would have built a suitable liter-class sportbike to replace it, but you forced me instead to buy a dime-a-dozen Honda..
I still think fondly of my 02 955i, and will continue to hope that you will someday build a worthy replacement, in the spirit of the 675.
I know that the wait is likely to be in vain, since the "bottom line" rules business these days, but just as the 675 is selling very well, a pricing and performance competitive liter class sportbike that doesn't get lost in the crowd would sell quite well here.
I'll keep hoping.
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Key
West Yorkshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 45
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (02)
20 Feb 2008 10:42 |
sort of from the horses mouth
Went for a ride out Sunday over to A1 Moto triumph in York. Whilst there I got talking to a bloke who is based at Hinckley but was spending a week at A1 Moto "Helping them out free of charge"?, He was meeting and greeting and making coffee for people, that type of thing.
The inevitable questions came,:
Hinkley guy: What are you riding?
Me: Daytona 955i 02.
Hinkley guy: Are you looking for anything inparticular?
Me: To be honest I love my Daytona to bits and at this moment in time would only be tempted away if the 955i replacement came along.
Hinkley guy: Well im sorry to disapoint you but my desk is next to the guy that deals with that sort of thing, (R&D i pressume), and I can safely say you will be waiting for a long time.
Me: well im gutted to hear that and there are a lot of guys on a forum called T595.net that I use that will be equally gutted, There are a lot of people out there that are Daytona owners and waiting for the new one to arrive. Some are allready moving away from the Triumph brand as they are sick of waiting and although Triumph are doing very well with all their other models, none of them suit the current big Daytona rider.
Hinkley guy: Have you tried the 675 or Sprint ST?
Me: The 675 is a superb looking bike and gets rave reviews but im 6'2 and the bikes too small for me, put a 1050 in the 675 and you've got me. As for the Sprint, Im 36 and not ready to move to the ST for a good few years yet 
Hinkley guy: Triumph did try to sporten up the ST to keep the Daytona owners happy!!
Me: took a sup of coffee and Ignored that comment completely!!
Hinkley guy: The problem is that Triumph export approx 80% of there business and so although its not right being a british company, they listen to other areas of the world before their own.
Me: Thats what Iv'e heard but at the moment the Triumph brand is blossoming and gaining great respect in the UK's press with the 675, Tiger, SP3 and Street Triple all being class leaders. Surley now is the time to build a Jap 1000cc beater and convert all ther owners to the British brand.
Hinkley guy: I hear what your saying but theirs nothing in the pipeline at present. Will be sure to mention all this to the guy on the desk next to me though when I get back next week.
Me: Tell him to log onto T595.net and see what the public in this country want.
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Key
West Yorkshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 45
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (02)
20 Feb 2008 10:42 |
All the above basicaly repeats what I have read on various threads on this site previously but it is interesting to hear it from the horses mouth as it were. A1 Moto was voted the best Triumph dealer in the UK last year which is probably why he was there for the week. The guys who run the dealership agree with our views on the big Daytona but the biggest worry is that in the hour that me and the strife were there, every other customer was 50+ and arrived on ST's so I was a lone figure fighting for the Daytona 1050's cause. We can but try
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Erick
MV Agusta in Paris..,
France
Posts: 3,835
Enthusiast
20 Feb 2008 11:03 |
thanks Key ! You resumed exactly the reasons why I moved away from the big T, and why many of us ex-daytona 955 owners did.
I'll come back when they make a sports liter triple, not a sport touring 300 kgs Daytona wannabe. (ok I'm over-reacting, but you knwo what I mean.)
The 675 is a great bike, it really is, but who would want an R6 coming from a liter triple ?
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Drayvn
Guernsey,
United Kingdom
Posts: 33
Speed Triple (05->)
20 Feb 2008 11:36 |
Well for me, i can say i would love to have a big litre daytona, even tho all i own is the SP3. I am even looking into the 675 even tho im too, lets say... rounded for it. Mate of mine has the centennial edition daytona, and he would by a new big daytona the day it comes out.
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Key
West Yorkshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 45
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (02)
20 Feb 2008 11:55 |
We can all dream  Photo Album Image
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,814
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
20 Feb 2008 14:42 |
Key:
A1 Moto was voted the best Triumph dealer in the UK last year which is probably why he was there for the week |
They'te also advertising for a Sales Executive & an Experienced Technician so maybe he was filling in for them as well ???
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Barney
South West,
United Kingdom
Posts: 3,509
Premier Member
Sprint ST (05->)
20 Feb 2008 19:13 |
We now export 80% of our production so the UK market doesn't rely matter that much is something I've heard from several Triumph staff.
Also the only place the ST sells in any numbers is the UK that's why they push it so hard in the bike press.
It's a dead duck in Europe.
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Ian Stubbs
Leicester,
United Kingdom
Posts: 489
Daytona T595 (97-98)
20 Feb 2008 20:46 |
I always think the new ST is fitting in a no mans land. They made it on the sporty side of tourer, which impressed the press, but its not sporty enough to move Daytona owners over, and owners of the old ST said it was too sporty. Hence why they've tried softening it a bit since.
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Key
West Yorkshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 45
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (02)
20 Feb 2008 20:58 |
[edited]:
angry of malborough They'te also advertising for a Sales Executive & an Experienced Technician so maybe he was filling in for them as well ???:
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He said he was there as free labour for the week, he could have been the prize for winning. 
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Capt. Kirk
leftcoast,
USA
Posts: 2,116
Premier Member
Enthusiast
20 Feb 2008 21:17 |
They still sale a ton of sportbikes here in California so it must be other parts of the world...
Everyone loves the triple's powerband. If they just made a litre+ motor that had more torque than the japanese to, say 10,000rpm, they'd make a bike for realworld riders..... Where, other than the track, do you wring out a litre bike
Grow the 675 a tad and throw some ohlins & brembo bits to get those who are brand oriented interested and you got a big dog exclusive winner!
Oh well.... you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink
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Cerberus
Connecticut,
USA
Posts: 5,163
Premier Member
Enthusiast
20 Feb 2008 22:46 |
James Tiberius:
Oh well.... you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink |
true. but you can bloody well drown the bastard for not doing what he's told... 
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Fret.
South.,
United Kingdom
Posts: 36,244
Premier Member
Tiger 1050 (07->)
20 Feb 2008 23:03 |
I guess we'll never see it, or a decent tourer either.
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SpondonGob
Brisbane,
Australia
Posts: 778
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 00:23 |
Also the only place the ST sells in any numbers is the UK that's why they push it so hard in the bike press. :
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Wow, that would come as a big surprise to Triumph Australia, the ST is a very close second in it's class here, a very popular model indeed.
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dave miles
Arizona,
USA
Posts: 219
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 00:44 |
I agree with Kirk. Plenty of room in this market for a liter (<--note the correct spelling of "liter" ) bike. Especially with this go fast, bling bling, extended swing arm crap that is currently the craze here and according to TWO magazine is catching on in Europe as well. I don't care how great of a bike it is but the 675 will not turn a 240 tire the same as any liter bike. Everyone here in the U.S. still lives by the "bigger is better" philosophy and it seems Triumph knew that when it built the R3? Now, WTF is the deal with not applying that to the sport market?
BOOOO, HISSSSSSSSS....
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dave miles
Arizona,
USA
Posts: 219
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 00:56 |
wait, before someone takes that the wrong way, I'm not saying to shove 2300cc into a sport frame. Just BUILD A DAMNED LITER BIKE!!!! It seems that Triumph is always slightly off when it comes to it's models, at least for this market. The R3 is just too damned big and a pig at slow speeds, the new R3 tourer hopefully fixed that problem with a 180 rear tire but left out the cruise on a touring model? WTF? at least have that and a radio as options, the Speedmaster and America won't scream past a harley without some engine work and besides who is competing in the 800cc cruiser range anyway?. I just don't get it, in some ways (the 675, S3, and Tiger) Triumph seems to be ahead of the game and in others it seems way behind.
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SpondonGob
Brisbane,
Australia
Posts: 778
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 01:45 |
I don't think anyone (even Triumph) are saying there isn't room for another litre sports bike, what IS being said is that it probably doesn't warrant the development costs for a small company like Triumph. They have very successful models in most other categories so a litre bike is by no means necessary for their future prosperity.
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Erick
MV Agusta in Paris..,
France
Posts: 3,835
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 07:51 |
just develop a liter triple and shove it into the 675, end of story...
I mean, what's the fecking big deal for an automotive company to do that ? They have the frame, hell I'm pretty sure the 675 lump could be used to a certain extend to develop a larger capacity, I really can't understand this attitude towards a real market segment willing to pay a LARGE amount of cash and impulse buy that type of machine.
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SpondonHAT
Boabekistan,
Australia
Posts: 3,390
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 09:36 |
Actually they don't have a frame, they have a 675 frame which definitely would not handle a 1000+cc engine and associated running gear.
It it was Honda or Yamaha then it wouldn't be a big deal but Triumph don't have the type of R&D budget to produce an engine for a shrinking market.
Having said that I have a sneaking feeling something is in the works but who knows really ?
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Rob BBTB
Birmingham,
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,339
Premier Member
Sprint ST (05->)
21 Feb 2008 10:15 |
[edited]:
Triumph simply can't afford to update / replace models every year.
In the ultra-competitive sports 600 and 1000 categories that's exactly what you must do, or you'll get slaughtered by the press, in their only-the-latest-model-is any good roadtests.
The 675 is different enough to stand on it's own merits compared to the Jap 600's and a litre bike would need to do the same.
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SpondonHAT
Boabekistan,
Australia
Posts: 3,390
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 10:43 |
I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one who can see the wood for the trees.
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Erick
MV Agusta in Paris..,
France
Posts: 3,835
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 10:58 |
"definitely would not handle a 1000+cc engine and associated running gear"
I don't agree... but hey, to each his own...
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SpondonHAT
Boabekistan,
Australia
Posts: 3,390
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 11:11 |
To be competitive a Triumph triple would have to be around 1100-1150cc, you can't honestly believe that the 675 frame is big enough to take an engine with 50% more capacity ? From what I can tell the 675 frame is nicely wrapped around the engine with little room to spare, where would they put the extra capacity ?
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Erick
MV Agusta in Paris..,
France
Posts: 3,835
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 12:31 |
[edited]:
on top. There's no room on the side but plenty above and under the current setup. Depends if they increase the bore or stroke, In all cases, a slight modification in the frame beams would, in my opinion, allow for a larger sump.
I also believe the frame/swingarm can handle the extra torque and grunt with minimum reinforcement. nothing Triumph couldn't do.
Next time I work on my mate's 675, I'll measure the frame and compare it with the MV's. The MV has a tiny frame ( width) and an inline four fits in, there no room left, but it fits.
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Cantbearsed
wolverhampton,
United Kingdom
Posts: 61
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 13:50 |
I wonder if the Triumph R&D team have seen this weeks rag. 4 pages of the BMW 1000cc superbike planned for next year.
I have to agree with Rob and Spondon, if you, as a manufacturer, don't update said bike every 2 years then the PB / MCN will tear you apart.
BMW can probably get away with it, because they are a "Premier" brand, like MV, so can leave any update as long as possible and still sell units on the strength of being different.
The fact is the bike market is getting older in the U.K. There are a lot of 40 + riders who have a fair amount of cash to spend, have had sports machinery and now view them as an irrelevance. I borrowed a 2007 R1 for a day last year and was gobsmacked at the power / handling. It just laughed at everthing i threw at it, and this is a bike perceived as a "touring" sportsbike!!
I would rather Triumph worked on establishing a decent dealer network, rather than the shower of twats they now have, and spent the R&D money on a new Trophy to compete with the BM K-GT and the Kwak GTR14.
Mind you, i know cock all...
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 8,379
Premier Member
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 14:52 |
The dealer network exists as it is now BECAUSE of Triumph so I can't see that changing in a hurry....and the perceived market value of overseas is a bubble waiting to burst. IMHO of course.
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Manny Fagnet
Poland,sorry Reading,
United Kingdom
Posts: 1,455
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
21 Feb 2008 15:58 |
I was always told than in marketing it was IMPERATIVE to keep your customers at all costs, as a customer will tend to stay with what they are happy and familiar with--In this instance as I'm rather unhappy with Triumph for not putting a big Dayto in the range for me, I'm hoping to get rather happy and familiar with one of those big orange 1200 twins from KTM..Bye bye Triumph-I'll be giving my £10k of hard earned cash to another brand and if I'm as happy with my big orange rocket as i'm hoping then i don't suppose I'll be back...
Curiously, Triumph say there isn't a market for a big Dayto, but there certainly was a market from 96/97 till 2005/6 so what changed, them or us?
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Blizzard
Coventry,
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,142
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (04->)
21 Feb 2008 19:07 |
The number of customers lost by not doing a litre sports bike have been more than compensated by the number of new customers buying the other bikes in the range
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,814
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
21 Feb 2008 19:33 |
We need facts not pillow talk
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 ST2
M3 / J3,
United Kingdom
Posts: 11,529
Premier Member
Speed Triple 955i (02-04)
21 Feb 2008 20:02 |
how would you really measure that ?
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,814
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
21 Feb 2008 20:05 |
On how damp your pillow is in the morning
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Android
Dereham, Norfolk,
United Kingdom
Posts: 574
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
21 Feb 2008 21:39 |
Shoe horning or adapting engines in 675 frames doesn't solve the problem for me. I want the whole bike to be bigger.
What would you rather (incoming hypothetical).
A. 675 frame with a 955 engine.
B. 955 frame with a 675 engine.
C. Mascarpone with raspberry coulis, wafer of your choice.
The answer is- (opens gold envelope and waits the now obligatory 5 seconds) B.
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SpondonHAT
Boabekistan,
Australia
Posts: 3,390
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 22:07 |
The FACTS are that Triumph certainly don't NEED to build a litre bike, they seem to be doing very well thank you very much. As Blizzard has said any lost sports bike buyers are more than compensated for by the growing number buying their other models.
They have a good reputation as can be seen by the aforementioned new buyers and contrary to what some would like to think don't appear to be on the verge of collapse.
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Blizzard
Coventry,
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,142
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (04->)
21 Feb 2008 23:24 |
The other thing to consider is that if you get it wrong you can seriously fuck up your company. Sportsbike riders are a fickle bunch and this weeks must have is next weeks junk
The best recent example of that is Ducati and the 999. It wasn't quite right and didn't sell and almost bankrupted them (as far as an Italian company can go bankrupt).
The big Japanese companies can afford to have a low volume bike as they sell hundreds of thousands of bikes so if one only sells a few dozen the losses can be absorbed by their bigger sellers.
Triumph simply isn't big enough to do that.
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SpondonHAT
Boabekistan,
Australia
Posts: 3,390
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 23:32 |
Good point. How many times have you read that the Daytona didn't really cut it against the Japs ? On the other hand there are a handful of people who say that the figures don't count in the real world which is 100% right BUT unfortunately when it comes down to it the figures are what sell the bike.
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Android
Dereham, Norfolk,
United Kingdom
Posts: 574
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
21 Feb 2008 23:32 |
SpondsCan't disagree with that, infact I don't think I did the last time you made the point or the time before that
Would you say that ALL the bikes in the Triumph range are NECESSARY?
I'm not sure (stands ready for the sucker punch) if bikes like the Scrambler or the Thruxton are bikes Triumph NEED to make.
What say you,Sir.
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Cerberus
Connecticut,
USA
Posts: 5,163
Premier Member
Enthusiast
21 Feb 2008 23:38 |
blizz: Sportsbike riders are a fickle bunch and this weeks must have is next weeks junk
maybe true of many of the mainstream folk, but i'd venture a guess that Triumph's following is a bit more loyal..
I know i am.
Even after having to go to Honda (and being branded a "honda-humper" for it by my peers).. i still miss the 955i
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Android
Dereham, Norfolk,
United Kingdom
Posts: 574
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
21 Feb 2008 23:51 |
Cerberus, you make a good point there I believe 'cos it's one I alluded to myself in the past.
The Triumph faithful is exactly that, any other mainstream company would've lost the like a long time ago and never to return, and they certainly wouldn't remain interested having already left.
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Blizzard
Coventry,
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,142
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (04->)
22 Feb 2008 00:05 |
The Scrambler and Thruxton are modular bikes that share a load of components so the development costs are lower.
The problem with a litre sportsbike is that the it wouldn't have much that could be shared with any other models in the range.
The current 1050 engine is split between 3 bikes so you will recoup the costs over 3 models rather than one. 3 models that have a multi year lifespan.
Honda appear to make a litre sportsbike, replace it after two years and slowly filter the old engine configurations into their other models.
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dave miles
Arizona,
USA
Posts: 219
Enthusiast
22 Feb 2008 02:01 |
I disagree with Triumph being too small to develop such a bike.
If KTM is large enough then why shouldn't Triumph be?
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dave miles
Arizona,
USA
Posts: 219
Enthusiast
22 Feb 2008 02:05 |
many other companies too for that matter, MV, Aprilia, Ducati? The 999 didn't go over because of it's styling. The 1098 has no problems selling and from the comparison tests that I've read, the 999 is a better bike.
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SpondonHAT
Boabekistan,
Australia
Posts: 3,390
Enthusiast
22 Feb 2008 02:41 |
You have to remember that many of these small companies stumble from one financial crisis to another, John Bloor appears to be far too screwd to allow that to happen. KTM have been developing their origami sports bike for more years than I can remember.
MV have decided to pretty much rely on one base model and sell them at a premium price.
Triumph COULD spend a few million developing an 1150cc Daytona SP and sell it for £20,000 but really what is the point ?
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dave miles
Arizona,
USA
Posts: 219
Enthusiast
22 Feb 2008 02:47 |
so rich bastards have something to sit in the garage
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Erick
MV Agusta in Paris..,
France
Posts: 3,835
Enthusiast
22 Feb 2008 07:54 |
[edited]:
"How many times have you read that the Daytona didn't really cut it against the Japs ?"
Not when the T595 came out in 97, it was compared to the cream back then, ie: the 916 and the blade, often kicking their respective arses in various shoot-outs! In fact it was designed to be better than the blade which was ruling then, triumph even tuned the production engines so that the T595 would develop 1 HP more than the Honda (futile I know... but true!)
The problem is: The 916 and the blade evolved... unlike the T595 who became a lardy touring bike in the process...
the last 955i in 2006 had to be up against 170 bhp / 160 kgs thous ! No wonder it "didn't cut it" ...
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Ian Stubbs
Leicester,
United Kingdom
Posts: 489
Daytona T595 (97-98)
22 Feb 2008 10:58 |
Did the Daytona 955i work from a finance point of view? ie. Did it cover its development / production costs, and make Triumph a clear profit?
If not, then it is logical not to try again. But if it did, then why not do it again!?
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 8,379
Premier Member
Enthusiast
22 Feb 2008 11:31 |
Very difficult to make a clear distinction as the frame and engine were both used in a number of different models...the whole problem lies at the heart of development; i.e. it really didn't get any. Whilst most Jap/Italian models get developed on a two year cycle the Triumph was left to stagnate. This is the way of Triumph and Mr Bloor; leave things alone and don't spend money until you absolutely have to (see 675) otherwise just keep tarting up the old models. I'm sure it will work for a number of years more than it has but in the end the buyers will bleed away and if they are not very careful Triumph will find themselves removed from the Bloor empire quick smart and will once again die a painful death; which will be very sad. How much development will they put into the 675 (apart from the racing bits) to kep it at the forefront of the supersport market? or will they just let it rest on its laurels for the foreseeable future unil they either have to do something or just let it die like the big Daytona?
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SpondonHAT
Boabekistan,
Australia
Posts: 3,390
Enthusiast
22 Feb 2008 11:32 |
It's hard to know really, possibly because of the modular construction to an extent obviously the R&D costs were spread over several different models. If they were to produce a specific motor for a sportsbike then it would be uneconomic.
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SpondonHAT
Boabekistan,
Australia
Posts: 3,390
Enthusiast
22 Feb 2008 11:46 |
I actually agree with XMan, just look at the 675 for example, it is considered by many to be THE best Supersports bike available and the Street Triple has won so many accolades I have lost count, the Sprint ST is often looked upon as the best or some may say the second best Sports Tourer on the market. The Speed Triple undoubtedly THE best naked bike available and alright they are increasing sales every year but how long can that possibly last with their attitude of building bikes everyone wants with the apparent exception of a litre sports bike ?
How long can Triumph possibly go on like this ? Surely it can't be enough to build good quality bikes at a very competitive price ? Come on Mr Bloor, you can't rely on increased sales forever
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ST2
M3 / J3,
United Kingdom
Posts: 11,529
Premier Member
Speed Triple 955i (02-04)
22 Feb 2008 11:46 |
[edited]:
Ian Stubbs,
Twould be interesting to know that sort of info from an 'overall' perspective - doubt you'd get to see the actual accounts and margin figures! - but production volumes to geographic markets might be available..... to help understand gross figures involved
By 'overall' I mean not just year by year figures, but if a launch 'loss' and then build up of volume shipped till a profitability level was anticipated - ie a loss in year 1, 2 etc till profit reached .... and then they saw it worthwhile to do the upgrades to 955i etc I guess, so how long past 'profitability' was manufacture continued ?
WHOOPSA, took me ages to type, being on the phone, aqnd others have arrived !
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Erick
MV Agusta in Paris..,
France
Posts: 3,835
Enthusiast
22 Feb 2008 12:47 |
The 675 is such a great little bike I hope they won't make the same mistake with it...
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Peter Pellatt
Bredhurst, Kent,
United Kingdom
Posts: 1,152
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (04->)
22 Feb 2008 12:55 |
[edited]:
Blizz :- The problem with a litre sportsbike is that the it wouldn't have much that could be shared with any other models in the range. :
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Well that's not really the case is it. The 1050 engine now in the S3, Tiger and Sprint can still trace it's roots back to the 955 Daytona. The existing 1050 engine will need replacing sometime so develop the high performance new big engine for the litre sports bike then re-work it for future applications in the other bikes. Then you can recoup the costs in the same way as they did before with the 955 engine and as they are doing now with the 675 in the Street Triple and "Tiger Cub" thing.
As for cycle parts, the basics are there with the 675, yes there would be development requirements but it wouldn't need to be from a blank sheet.
Android
What would you know about it anyway, you've got a Sprint ST ya big gay hairdresser !!
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 8,379
Premier Member
Enthusiast
22 Feb 2008 14:10 |
don't forget the frame also fits that Peter. Slight differences but not redevelopments. Fuck me they even did the single/double/single sided swing arm shuffle without a redesign of the frame.
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andy d
Yorkshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 1,223
Premier Member
Speed Triple (05->)
22 Feb 2008 17:24 |
I was speaking to a bloke who shall remain nameless who said that the 675 is in for a major re work.
Wouldn't expand any further.
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Blizzard
Coventry,
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,142
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (04->)
22 Feb 2008 17:47 |
Peter Pellat:
The 1050 engine now in the S3, Tiger and Sprint can still trace it's roots back to the 955 Daytona. |
no it goes back to the 955 RS/ST/S3/Tiger engine which was a different animal to the 955 Daytona engine.
PP:
As for cycle parts, the basics are there with the 675, yes there would be development requirements but it wouldn't need to be from a blank sheet |
The 1050 engine is the same width as a 675 bike so that's a new frame for starters, which leads to a new seat unit and fairing and suddenly it's an all new bike
The "Tiger Cub" is a rumour and nothing more.
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Cerberus
Connecticut,
USA
Posts: 5,163
Premier Member
Enthusiast
22 Feb 2008 18:38 |
andy: this kind of thing keeps me having hopes
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PegLeg
dorset,
United Kingdom
Posts: 424
Premier Member
Speed Triple T509 (97-98)
22 Feb 2008 21:02 |
I am still suprised that no one appears to have done a road going mock up of a big 675. I was talking to the main man at skidmarx wo makes all the moulds there and he reckons that altering a 675 body kit to fit a 1050 speed triple would not be undoable. Ok i know its not that easy, Subframe alterations, Engine retune, clip ons, etc, but you get my drift. Not doubt people will think why bother, but it wouldnt half be different.
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Blizzard
Coventry,
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,142
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (04->)
22 Feb 2008 21:16 |
you forgot losing 30-40kg whilst adding a fairing, adding 40-50hp as well
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Key
West Yorkshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 45
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (02)
22 Feb 2008 21:29 |
Should be an interesting year ahead what with the new triumph factory team in supersport and all the other races showing off their 675. Never know, if the bike starts winning races all over the place. the Triumph brand will become cool and demand for the big Tona will increase. Maybe that will change the pen pushers minds!!, (ps. I think the Triumph brand is cool/exclusive but many others see it as an old mans brand) IMHO
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SpondonHAT
Boabekistan,
Australia
Posts: 3,390
Enthusiast
22 Feb 2008 22:20 |
Stop being so bloody positive, Triumph are rapidly heading down the drain, it's obvious.
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Android
Dereham, Norfolk,
United Kingdom
Posts: 574
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
23 Feb 2008 00:18 |
I don't know about the Kunta-kinte of the engine but you can't say the Daytona isn't modular - where the heck did the parts for the Speed Triple come from Blizz?!
Take a look at the industry formula, regardless of company size, it's no different for the Dayto/ Spd triple; Build a full on sports bike then rework it to provide the range with a naked. They've already done it once just like every other fecker so why not do it again.
Rob, What makes the 675 so different from jap 600's that wouldn't apply to the litre comparison?
As Cerberus said, Triumph riders are less fickle and we don't need 2 year upgrades.
Cantbearsed suggests premier brands can get away with slow model development 'cos they're different. Triumph have managed to convince the market place they build quality machines and they are definately as different as BMW or MV, i.e. Triumph have history like MV. Triumph have the trademark engine like BMW.
Gruppenfuhrer pellatt, something for the weekend Sir?
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William Ow
Santa Cruz, Ca,
USA
Posts: 153
Tiger (01-06)
23 Feb 2008 07:46 |
Wow...Triumph get moving on the long awated liter Daytona!
Inline Image
William
Santa Cruz, Ca
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Peter Pellatt
Bredhurst, Kent,
United Kingdom
Posts: 1,152
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (04->)
23 Feb 2008 08:21 |
Blizzard: no it goes back to the 955 RS/ST/S3/Tiger engine which was a different animal to the 955 Daytona engine.:
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Not really Blizz, the engines are all very similar apart from internal component swaps to suit the different applications.
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Peter Pellatt
Bredhurst, Kent,
United Kingdom
Posts: 1,152
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (04->)
23 Feb 2008 08:27 |
[b:
Gruppenfuhrer pellatt[/b], something for the weekend Sir?] |
Ja Herr Nebelwerfer, bin ich an der Arbeit für 25 der 48 Stunden dieses Wochenendes, ich plagueing Sie mit mindestens einem endlosen Telefongespräch!
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Barney
South West,
United Kingdom
Posts: 3,509
Premier Member
Sprint ST (05->)
23 Feb 2008 12:02 |
[edited]:
The thing is Triumph don't have to make a bike to beat the R1, Glixxer, Frireblade or Ninja so it wouldn't need replacing after 2 years,all they have to do is build a top end one litre real world sports bike for road use not a track day tool, break the mould like they did with the 675.
The pub bullshitters my 1098 will do 190mph, he's had it a year and done less than 500-1000 miles, bike meets are full of them.  .
They will always buy what the bike press say is the must have bike and Triumph is better than that and most of the people who buy them tend to be people who can ride with several years experience behind them.
We all been out with them blast past you at a 100mph+ on the straight,come the next set of decent twisty stuff they're holding you up.
The old Daytona is a stuning bike and better in the real world than the Jap stuff and more of a machine than I could ever do real justice to and the same goes for most of us on this site with the exception of one or two.
The speed thing is a bit of a red herring anyway it's the bloke in the seat I've seen Harve the old French RAT co-ordinator leave 3 blokes on top end Jap sports bikes for dead in The Alps and he was riding a Tiger.
Most of us Triumph riders from what ever country would be happy and buy it for the next five years all we want a bike that's more sport focused than the current ST.
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Fret.
South.,
United Kingdom
Posts: 36,244
Premier Member
Tiger 1050 (07->)
23 Feb 2008 13:58 |
Amen to that.
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Blizzard
Coventry,
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,142
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (04->)
23 Feb 2008 14:36 |
You make a 'real world' litre sports bike and your sales will be counted in 10s, maybe 100s if you are lucky so it would need to sell for years and years to even get close to making back the money spent developing it.
That Aprillia has been made to go racing, it's not a real world bike and will cost £15k IIRC
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Barney
South West,
United Kingdom
Posts: 3,509
Premier Member
Sprint ST (05->)
23 Feb 2008 14:56 |
Sorry Blizz don't agree I don't want a crotch rocket but like I said want something more sporty than the ST, a real world road sports bike and there are 1000's like me.
The 595 was a contender when it first came out but the later Daytona was a real world sports bike miles off the litre Jap bikes and sold ,it just got to old and dated in the end.
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Blizzard
Coventry,
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,142
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (04->)
23 Feb 2008 15:00 |
I'm sorry but the 955 didn't sell in large enough numbers just like the Thunderbird Sport which is more popular now than it was when it was in production.
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 8,379
Premier Member
Enthusiast
23 Feb 2008 15:53 |
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Barney
South West,
United Kingdom
Posts: 3,509
Premier Member
Sprint ST (05->)
23 Feb 2008 16:37 |
Oh well more Bonnie derivatives to look forward to
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,814
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
23 Feb 2008 17:05 |
Yep what we need are more variations on the Bonnie but in varying shades of black
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ST2
M3 / J3,
United Kingdom
Posts: 11,529
Premier Member
Speed Triple 955i (02-04)
23 Feb 2008 17:36 |
like pillowslips .....
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,814
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
23 Feb 2008 17:54 |
Matt, Jet & Gloss
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,814
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
23 Feb 2008 17:54 |
I can't remember the 4th one from The Stranglers
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ST2
M3 / J3,
United Kingdom
Posts: 11,529
Premier Member
Speed Triple 955i (02-04)
23 Feb 2008 18:19 |
sigh - twas a link to your pillow-talk clue .....
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,814
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
23 Feb 2008 18:49 |
You're too sharp for me old timer
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SpondonHAT
Boabekistan,
Australia
Posts: 3,390
Enthusiast
23 Feb 2008 21:17 |
Barney, the old Daytona DIDN'T sell for exactly the reasons you stated, it didn't compete head on with the Japs and sales figures reflected that. IF Triumph were to get into the litre + market they would have to build a bike fully capable of taking on the opposition and even beating them.
The fact that they aren't building a new Daytona doesn't point to them building more Bonneville derivatives, even the most negative doom merchant must be able to see that.
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 8,379
Premier Member
Enthusiast
24 Feb 2008 10:45 |
WALOB.
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SpondonHAT
Boabekistan,
Australia
Posts: 3,390
Enthusiast
24 Feb 2008 11:35 |
Whatever, we all have differing opinions.
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andy d
Yorkshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 1,223
Premier Member
Speed Triple (05->)
24 Feb 2008 13:18 |
[edited]:
When the 595 came out it was aimed squarely at the Japanese and for about six months after launch it was the best selling large capacity sportsbike. In fact as with the Street Triple second hand models were for sale at a premium.
It has suffered from a lack of development since then.
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Barney
South West,
United Kingdom
Posts: 3,509
Premier Member
Sprint ST (05->)
24 Feb 2008 20:14 |
Sorry prehaps that being a bit to pessimistic Rocket derivatives 
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Jason B
Colchester,
United Kingdom
Posts: 120
Daytona 955i (02CE, 03)
24 Feb 2008 20:57 |
One of the reasons cited for no new daytona replacement is that if it had come out in the last or next six months, it would be immediately trounced by the latest blade etc. Fair enough but on this basis, can we expect them to respond in 2009?
Another argument for not making one is to say there is no demand. Does anyone remember the hordes demanding a 675cc two-three years ago? Nope, not even a whisper! But those scientists up at Hinkley Towers knew they were on to a winner with those extra cubes and a fab bike. They had the balls to do something new and they have been rewarded for it. So surely they can capitalise on the legacy of the daytona and it's latest 675 version.
Other arguments about not being able to make it light enough, fast enough, insufficient demand...blah blah blah....all I can hear is the voice of the teacher in Snoopy. Are Triumph saying they have run out of steam and no longer have the ability to innovate or evolve? Baah! Of course they will do it and I'm looking forward to 2009!
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Capt. Kirk
leftcoast,
USA
Posts: 2,116
Premier Member
Enthusiast
24 Feb 2008 21:58 |
The thing about R&D is that the the 675 is the 3rd midclass sportbike they tried. You think they would of folded up the tent after the 2nd attempt. And they did it in a relatively quick time until they got it right. Why would a liter bike be any different.
The 955i died a lingering death... the first model was top notch. When mine came out in 2002, it would of been great in 2001 but was 30lbs heavier though the motor was still competitive with the R1. But in 2003 the japs all increased by about 30hp and Triumph didn't respond. That was the end.
Triumph's history was made with race bikes, not classic novelties. How many guys are still alive (and riding) that "always wanted a Bonnie" of their youth?
Like I said earlier, I think they could exploit the 3 cyclinders powerband by making it more powerful up thru about 10 grand. Or, the heck with cc rules, just make the displacement enough to match/beat the power of others and not worry about racing.
That would make a great canyon and trackday bike and Triumph wouldn't have to worry about the cost of racing. The magazines would acknowledge that it's the best but "an outlaw bike". That would make it in line with the hoodlum Speedtriple (heck use the motor for it too). Throw in a "S" model with bling bits for exclusivity as well. I think Triumph needs to go for more exclusivity than Honda etc.. Then price it for profit at lower quantities.
I'm telling you, the ad guys could have a field day!
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Jason B
Colchester,
United Kingdom
Posts: 120
Daytona 955i (02CE, 03)
24 Feb 2008 22:06 |
You're right Capt K. Triumph have figured out how to sell 'exclusivity' to the masses! They keep saying they are not setting themselves up to compete with the big Japanese brands so they focus on niche markets....if there are so few daytona riders, we should fit right into one of their target demographics
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SpondonHAT
Boabekistan,
Australia
Posts: 3,390
Enthusiast
24 Feb 2008 23:14 |
Jason, I dodn't think anyone has said there is no demand for a litre bike BUT as the market is shrinking then demand is shrinking.
Actually I DO remember very well the demands for a 675 triple, it was the hot topic for quite awhile and almost an anti climax when it was announced, I'm not sure anyone expected it to be quite as good as it is though.
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Android
Dereham, Norfolk,
United Kingdom
Posts: 574
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
24 Feb 2008 23:15 |
Jason B and Capt. Kirk you both make good points there
Let me buy you both a pint
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Jason B
Colchester,
United Kingdom
Posts: 120
Daytona 955i (02CE, 03)
24 Feb 2008 23:35 |
I'm not listening !!! 
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Erick
MV Agusta in Paris..,
France
Posts: 3,835
Enthusiast
25 Feb 2008 08:10 |
"Does anyone remember the hordes demanding a 675cc two-three years ago? Nope, not even a whisper!"
Some of us on this forum did, and over 2-3 years ago ! (we secretely think T595.net gave them the idea...hahahahaha !)
Retrospectively, we expected a lot from the TT600, being injected and all when the rest of the Japanese production were still using carbs.
The bike failed, well not really, but in the eyes of many it did.
There were a few threads on here relating to the fact a triple would have been an alternative in the 600 segment, if I recall we talked about a 710 or 750.
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Blizzard
Coventry,
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,142
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (04->)
25 Feb 2008 08:14 |
The TT600 taught Triumph an important lesson - don't release a bike because the press want it, release it when it's ready.
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Erick
MV Agusta in Paris..,
France
Posts: 3,835
Enthusiast
25 Feb 2008 08:19 |
[edited]:
this was in 2002, so 6 years ago !
http://www.t595.net/messa.....ight=600+triple
extract: "Triumph should build a 650-750 supersport, three cylinder, singlesided swing arm with the older style T595 fairing or VERY similar, weighing 375 lbish. Since Kawasaki is building the 636cc for the 600 class and Ducati has the 748cc why not? I think it would be cool but... what do I know? "
we are clairvoyant on T595.net ! 
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Fret.
South.,
United Kingdom
Posts: 36,244
Premier Member
Tiger 1050 (07->)
25 Feb 2008 20:59 |
I'm not so sure about Triumph not competing with the Japanese brands.
The 675 proves it could whup the middleweight class, the ST the sports tourers and the Tiger the Fazer/Bandit/Hornet crowd.
Keep it up, lads...........................................and release the sportsbike and tourer everyone else wants.
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Jason B
Colchester,
United Kingdom
Posts: 120
Daytona 955i (02CE, 03)
25 Feb 2008 22:41 |
If you re-read my post you'll see I wrote that it was the "hordes" not clammering for a 675. Of course I was not including the the considered foresight of this particularly learned forum.
And to deliberately mis-quote Blizz "Triumph won't release the replacement until they are ready!"
As I said, 2009?
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Erick
MV Agusta in Paris..,
France
Posts: 3,835
Enthusiast
26 Feb 2008 07:49 |
We hope Jason, fingers crossed, so I can get rid of the pizzaiolo MV and get back to a glorious triple... 
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 8,379
Premier Member
Enthusiast
26 Feb 2008 10:15 |
you could always buy a Benelli....
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Erick
MV Agusta in Paris..,
France
Posts: 3,835
Enthusiast
26 Feb 2008 10:53 |
[edited]:
lol !
naaaah.... need to get into work every morning somehow...
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SpondonHAT
Boabekistan,
Australia
Posts: 3,390
Enthusiast
26 Feb 2008 11:10 |
A Benelli and a bus pass ?
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Erick
MV Agusta in Paris..,
France
Posts: 3,835
Enthusiast
26 Feb 2008 13:03 |
ROTFLMAO !!!!
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X-Man
Chesterfield/Derbys,
United Kingdom
Posts: 8,379
Premier Member
Enthusiast
26 Feb 2008 13:29 |
'parrently they are a little morwe reliable than they used to be since the chinese got involved.
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DaytoMan
The Heartland,
USA
Posts: 932
Daytona 955i (99-01)
07 Mar 2008 17:27 |
[edited]:
Ha ha! They also denied the existance of the Rocket III all the way to press time release.
You really cant blame them for denieing the big Daytona...Because they cant update as often as the Japs..they need to do with the big Daytona whatthey did with the D675...make it soooo damn good that it will kill everything the first year or two then stay competitive for another 2 or 3 years before they can update it.
They had been working on the 675 since 2002 before they released it in 2006..same with the Big bike, needs some time to develope. Its about time...We'll see a Big Daytona soon.
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SpondonGob
Brisbane,
Australia
Posts: 778
Enthusiast
07 Mar 2008 22:08 |
I certainly wouldn't expect Triumph to admit to be developing ANY new model, it is their way. There are enough rumours to suggest it MAY be the case.
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