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Erik in Vegas
Las Vegas,
USA
Posts: 6
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
09 May 2008 21:27 |
Has anyone come across a loud CLUNK! (metal on metal sounding and feeling) when starting or shutting off a 595. Mine is a '98. For awhile, sometimes when I would be starting the bike or when I shut it off, I would hear and feel a CLUNK coming from the engine. Sometimes this CLUNK would interupt the starting cycle and I would have to press the starter button again. Once started, the bike runs as good as she ever has. I went to ride it the other day and the battery was a bit weak. Since my trickle charger was at my Dad's, I jumped it with another battery. This is when it went from a CLUNK every once in a while to now it CLUNKs more than it turns over in an attempt to start. I have since charged the battery, changed the fluids, removed and inspected the starter and removed the clutch cover and looked in there at the different gears that I could see that mesh with the starter, but all looks well. The bike will start if you bump start it and sounds fine when it is running.
I hate not having my Triumph, so I hope someone can shed some light on this.
Thanks, Erik in Vegas
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 Boycie
Valhöll,
United Kingdom
Posts: 8,726
Premier Member
Speed Triple (05->)
09 May 2008 22:59 |
[edited]:
Immediate thought is sprag clutch ... if it is it will be expensive unless you are good with tools ...
a search for sprag clutch gives these..
http://www.t595.net/messa.....amp;d=1&p=0
I hope it's not ..post #1 
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Red Monkey
Swinging in a tyre,
United Kingdom
Posts: 18,354
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (99-01)
10 May 2008 09:54 |
Out of curiosity, is there a common cause for this? I have it in my mind that trying to crank over the bike on a weak battery can cause this.
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Kerry
foot of Mt Taranaki,
New Zealand
Posts: 81
Premier Member
Daytona 900 (93-96)
10 May 2008 13:13 |
Hi Erik, Boycie is probably on the money. A couple of things to check before committing the wallet. First being Red Monkey's suggestion about the battery, must be in top condition.
As for the sprag bearing, or more accurately, the shaft. The early models had a 13mm bolt at either end of the starter shaft. Either of these may be loosening. The only way to be sure is to remove the clutch cover and alternator. If the shaft has already been updated, it will have a bolt that passes right through the shaft, usually with the nut in the alternator side. Check that all is tight. I have seen these come loose also, the bolt head rubs on the back of the outer cluch drum gear, the nut in the alternator side almost off completely and the alternator drive coupling flailing about on the rubbers.
Another issue, if you have tried to start with a flat battery, a 'kick back' may have broken a tooth off the sprag gear, hence the 'clunk' sound. Finally, the needle roller bearing, in the clutch side of the casing may be breaking up, though this condition is normally very audible when started and idling.
A quick test. If yours is equipped witha light switch, start the engine, turn the lights on while listening carefully around the starter/alternator area, then turn the lights off. If the noise increases markedly with the lights off, you probably have starter clutch issues. If you don't have a switch, remove and refit the fuse replace it without pressing it home completely while testing.
Hope its just your battery!
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Fret.
South.,
United Kingdom
Posts: 37,892
Premier Member
Tiger 1050 (07->)
10 May 2008 15:21 |
If it sounds like the gearbox falling apart..............sprag clutch.
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Red Monkey
Swinging in a tyre,
United Kingdom
Posts: 18,354
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (99-01)
10 May 2008 22:54 |
I am no mechanical expert, particularly on these things but.....my alternator rattles a little when the lights are off and people used to put this down to the alternator shaft being a bit loose (which I checked).
A Triumph mechanic (one that I trust) told me it was nothing to worry about and that a lot of the alternators rattle when not under load.......the worry is when they rattle under load. Mine is a late built 99 model but oddly has minor variations and has parts from what became the later (2000my?) bike.....again, the Triumph mechanic said it wasn't unusual as Triumph phased bits in under "continual improvement".....oh, and I've had the bike from new.
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Erik in Vegas
Las Vegas,
USA
Posts: 6
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
12 May 2008 17:47 |
Thanks Kerry, I'll look into the shaft. Thanks overall for all of the input, even if it is bad news. I'd rather know what was wrong so I can move forward.
I was reading the manual on removing the alternator, and it tells you to use some special Triumph tool. I'm assuming to just remove the alternator and inspect the bolt, this step is not necessary - please advise.
Thanks all!
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Red Monkey
Swinging in a tyre,
United Kingdom
Posts: 18,354
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (99-01)
12 May 2008 19:50 |
To remove the aternator you do not need a special tool. From memory there are 4 rubbers inside which will need re-aligning when you put it back : a smear of grease will hold them in place.
The biggest frustration can be getting the "o" ring back in - I'd suggest you buy a spare (or 2) as it's easy to pinch them. I put mine in the freezer for a hour which seemed to help.
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Kerry
foot of Mt Taranaki,
New Zealand
Posts: 81
Premier Member
Daytona 900 (93-96)
12 May 2008 23:29 |
Hi Erik, yes, Red pretty much right. No tool required to remove the alternator. The tool described in the manual allows you to lock the drive while loosening/tightening the starter shaft nut/bolt. I generally lube to O ring that seals the alternator with rubber grease and fit with a very slight rocking action and gently pressing in squarely. As Red states, a bit of grease on the outer edges of the rubbers holds them in place. Be sure to refit them with the linking straps facing out. The linking straps I refer to join each pair of rubbers. Eight rubbers, four pairs.I have encounted many of these fitted the wrong way around.
Yes indeed there have been numerous changes to the starter assembly over the years, including bolts, inner bearing sleeves, number of idler gear teeth , tooth profile, and sprag gear width. As you can appreciate, essential to have the correct update
Here's one that could make you cry!
One change that I had encounted last year was on a '92 Trident.
The bike concerned had its sprag gear replaced some three years earlier by another workshop, and was starting without any issue, though very low on compression. The owner rode it like this for quite a mileage. After a time he noticed water in the oil, (2 leaking liners).
I was asked to fix the compression problem and reseal the liners. After the usual valve work & ring replacement the top end was refitted, tuned & tested, then delivered back to the owner. A few days later he rang to say it had made a 'clunk' sound when starting.
I removed the carbs & sprag cover, ouch! 4 teeth ripped from the starter gear!!!
The cause? The 'updated' sprag gear had teeth of a slightly different pitch profile than the idler gear. The effect was that the wider pitch of the idler was forcing the starter gear teeth apart. The substantionally improved compression was too much for it during start up. After removing the sump we found 3 of the teeth straight away, the other was found sitting in a ledge near the oil pump and took ages to find. Thank goodness he didn't get it started when it happened!
I will post a couple of pic's tonight, the microscopic pic's show it clearly.
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Erik in Vegas
Las Vegas,
USA
Posts: 6
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
12 May 2008 23:43 |
Hopefully tonight I can find out if I'm going to have to split the cases (more than likely, but keeping my fingers crossed!)
On the gear that the starter turns, can you turn it continuously in the direction it freewheels to see if any teeth are missing? The starter looked great, but I can't say I turned that gear a full rotation.
If I do have to split, anything else I should be looking at or replacing while I'm in there? Performance options?
This is a '98 - VIN 055633. Any other updates to look into? I don't believe it has had many, if any updates done to it. I bought it in 2000 with 2200 miles on the clock. Only time it has been serviced at a shop since I have owned it, was for the 12k service.
Thanks, Erik in Vegas
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Kerry
foot of Mt Taranaki,
New Zealand
Posts: 81
Premier Member
Daytona 900 (93-96)
13 May 2008 00:04 |
Hi Erik, the only gear you will be seeing through the starter motor hole is the very fine gear the starter motor engages with and the edge of the smaller gear (very UNLIKELY to be damaged), this one engages with the starter gear on the sprag bearing/gear assembly. If any are damaged, it will be the 51 tooth starter/sprag gear and unfortunately you won't be able to see it:(
Really, before thinking about stripping Erik, I would turn the clock back a wee bit to your original posts. Be sure that battery is mint. Be sure the starter shaft bolt/nut behind the alternator is tight. Be sure the alternator rubbers are in good condition, then I would leave it at that unless you here that starting 'clunk' again.
As I had tried to explain, and Red probably described it better, unless it's making a lot of noise with the lights on the starter assembly should be ok.
Are you able to listen to someone elses T595 to compare?
You may have simply experienced a light' kickback' during starting because of the battery.
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Erik in Vegas
Las Vegas,
USA
Posts: 6
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
13 May 2008 00:32 |
Unfortunately I know I have some issues. The only thing left for me to try is the starter shaft bolt/nut and the alternator rubbers.
Battery is fully charged up. Even tried a second battery.
The bike won't start on it's own. Makes a whole lot of CLUNKING while it is trying to start and makes me want to cry from the metal on metal sounds I'm hearing. The bike did start and run fine when bump started.
I'll give an update tomorrow. Thanks!
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Frank Jones
NY,
USA
Posts: 2,697
Premier Member
Sprint RS (02-05)
13 May 2008 01:53 |
This is ONE reason why I wish the US bikes had a "lights off" setting!!!
( I know the starter circuit switches off the light circuit during starting.would just help initially , if you know your battery is a little weak!!!)
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Kerry
foot of Mt Taranaki,
New Zealand
Posts: 81
Premier Member
Daytona 900 (93-96)
13 May 2008 02:28 |
Ok Erik, yep, thats the starter assembly
email me and I'll send you some better details than I can do on here. kerry@triplefourensics.co.nz or triple_fourensics@yahoo.co.nz
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Kerry
foot of Mt Taranaki,
New Zealand
Posts: 81
Premier Member
Daytona 900 (93-96)
13 May 2008 03:08 |
Hey Red, putting a '97 T/Bird back together, just tried your 'freezer' trick on the alternator O ring......top move:)
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Erik in Vegas
Las Vegas,
USA
Posts: 6
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
13 May 2008 05:39 |
[edited]:
I just removed as much as I could from the exterior of the engine and all looks well (no metal fragments or broken off teeth that I can see - yet!). My alternator had the bolt with the nut on the alternator side, but it was still tight. The head of the bolt did look a bit scraped, but I don't see matching marks on the back of the clutch?
As I reach in with a finger from the clutch side, the starter gear seems to have excessive play side to side. How do I know if it is too much?
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Kerry
foot of Mt Taranaki,
New Zealand
Posts: 81
Premier Member
Daytona 900 (93-96)
13 May 2008 06:42 |
Have sent you some pic's and details of recent '97 T595 rebuild, what you're looking for is in there.
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Red Monkey
Swinging in a tyre,
United Kingdom
Posts: 18,354
Premier Member
Daytona 955i (99-01)
13 May 2008 11:06 |
Glad the freezer trick worked for you Kerry
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Kerry
foot of Mt Taranaki,
New Zealand
Posts: 81
Premier Member
Daytona 900 (93-96)
13 May 2008 13:22 |
Cheers Red, always keen to learn, will be adopting that trick 
Have posted some microscope shots of the mis-matched sprag gear as described earlier, hope not too many of those around!
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