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Wayne Macdonald
Sydney,
Australia
Posts: 513
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
16 Jan 2006 23:42 |
I have been working on the TuneBoy software for the Rocket III and other bikes with the Keihin ECU and thought I would ask for some input from owners.
1. I can remove the power limiting in the first three gears, Should I include this in the software.
2. How bad is the speedo error on this bike?
3. Should I remove the speed limiter
Software should be ready in a couple of weeks.
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NOJ84U
Missouri,
USA
Posts: 31
Enthusiast
17 Jan 2006 03:29 |
[edited]:
1. Yes, I assume you mean a way to control the secondary butterflies so they stay open all of the time (an alternative to removing them all together).
2. Speedo error doesn't seem to be that much of an issue maybe 5-8 mph at highway speeds. Another nice option though.
3. Having the option to remove the speed limiter would also be a nice option. I don't know if I would do it but a definite selling point for your product.
I assume you have the fuel and air mixture portion whipped. The popping on decel when the cat is removed and aftermarket pipes are on is what seems to be the big issue with rocket owners.
You might want to visit triumphrat.net under the rocket science forum. A lot of owners there with techincal knowledge and many miles on their rockets. Look forward to installing a TuneBoy on mine. Thanks.
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Wayne Macdonald
Sydney,
Australia
Posts: 513
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
17 Jan 2006 04:57 |
The Rocket also has a different ignition map for 1st and 2nd gears, the secondary butterfly is only part of it (A big part though).
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Steve Phillips RaceComp
Adelaide,
Australia
Posts: 535
Premier Member
Speed Triple (05->)
17 Jan 2006 19:57 |
Do they have a gear sensor on them like on the GSXR's.
5 gear is the only gear with full advance, the rest are slightly retarded.
So by daisy linking the gear sensor switch it thinks it's in 5 gear all the time. Worth a few BHP for 5 minuets work
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Paul T
Toronto,
Canada
Posts: 50
Rocket III (04->)
30 Jan 2006 03:49 |
I would like to be able to remove any power limits as an option.
The speedo error on many Rockets is excessive.
I've been waiting patiently for a while now and am glad that the arrival is almost here,
Cheers Wayne
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Franz Scheurer
Sydney,
Australia
Posts: 2
Rocket III (04->)
02 Feb 2006 09:53 |
TuneBoy is there!
Today I had TuneBoy flash my Rocket III and remove all restrictions to 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear. No more restrictions to power or fuel. What a change!!!! The bike feels like nothing I've ever ridden before. Crank the throttle and it immediately gets light in the front, reminiscient of a much lighter sportsbike, without losing the stability inherent in the Rocket III. This is the first Rocket III with TuneBoy's mods and I promise you it will not be the last. Fantastic!!!
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Jay Dubya
Sydney,
Australia
Posts: 1,045
Premier Member
Sprint ST (05->)
02 Feb 2006 21:22 |
Hey there Franz ......
You're not the Franz that married your seafood chef at Cockle Bay a few years ago ?
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Franz Scheurer
Sydney,
Australia
Posts: 2
Rocket III (04->)
02 Feb 2006 21:50 |
SSS chef
Absolutely the same 
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Jay Dubya
Sydney,
Australia
Posts: 1,045
Premier Member
Sprint ST (05->)
02 Feb 2006 21:55 |
Hey there matey, It's the videoguy here....how you doin ' ?
A rocket III - you lucky bugger.... 
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Rocketman
Gloucestershire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 60
Rocket III (04->)
03 Mar 2006 14:21 |
Torque limitation?
To my knowledge the secundairy throttles are not to restict torque but to optimize the air flow to obtain optimal torque in low rev's.
Many cars have a similar devise that will lengthen and shorten the intake in order to improve torque at low rev's and power at high rev's.
Regardless of which gear you are in, at full throttle and high RPM's the secundairy throttles are fully open anyway.
To keep the secundairy throttles open at all time will reduce the efficiency/torque at low rpm's.
No disrespect, but it would be interesting to know what the designer of the engine managment system has to say; does anybody have any contacts in Hinckley??
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NOJ84U
Missouri,
USA
Posts: 31
Enthusiast
07 Mar 2006 03:01 |
The secondary throttle plates do not increase torque or air flow. Where that came from I don't know. They stay partially closed in the first three gears to restrict the sudden on set of power. Removing them makes the bike faster off the line. Trust me.
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Paul T
Toronto,
Canada
Posts: 50
Rocket III (04->)
10 Mar 2006 01:55 |
What rocketman is saying is true. He did not state that it increases torque or airflow but optimises them. If the throttles are yanked open at low revs there is not enough velocity to efficiently fill each cylinder. The fact that the secondaries do not open fully to restrict power is a different thing altogether. The best scenario will be when the TuneBoy is setup to allow the secondaries to open at the right airflow with NO restriction.
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Wayne Macdonald
Sydney,
Australia
Posts: 513
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
13 Mar 2006 02:09 |
If Triumph where using the secondary butterfly to optimise airflow they would do the same thing in all five gears, they don't.
In fourth and fifth gears they keep the secondary fully open.
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NOJ84U
Missouri,
USA
Posts: 31
Enthusiast
13 Mar 2006 02:50 |
[edited]:
"Many cars have a similar devise that will lengthen and shorten the intake in order to improve torque at low rev's and power at high rev's."
I'm not clear on how the secondaries change the length of the intake. I think of it this way, the primary butterflies open at real time with the throttle being opened and engine goes vroom. With the secondaries opening (not real time with the twist of the throttle) but on a delay operated by the computer which in turn delays the delivery of power. Something like 7 or 9%.
For an engine to have strong torque like the rocket it must have short valve timing. The problem being with short timing if there is not enough air flow (say with a 2 valve/cylinder engine) airflow can't keep up and you lose torque. Since the Rocket has 4 valves per cylinder it can have short valve timing and the intake valves can keep up with the required airflow which equals a ton of low end torque that stays straight on through to the high revs. Hence the need for the secondaries to restrict air flow because the engine has (perhaps in Triumph's eyes) too much power to deliver to your average cruiser rider at one time in 1st, 2nd or 3rd gears.
I guess I could of used Wayne's logic too. He's a smart man.
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Paul T
Toronto,
Canada
Posts: 50
Rocket III (04->)
15 Mar 2006 00:12 |
What do you mean by "short" valve timing? In terms of lift, duration or overlap
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Paul T
Toronto,
Canada
Posts: 50
Rocket III (04->)
15 Mar 2006 00:17 |
The big question though is "how far off are we, Wayne"?
It will be warm enough to start riding again very soon here.
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NOJ84U
Missouri,
USA
Posts: 31
Enthusiast
15 Mar 2006 03:20 |
[edited]:
Short valve timing meaning the amount of time it takes or is needed for the valves to open and close. The more they can remained closed is less opportunity there is for the engine to back pump. By having 2 intake and 2 exhaust they can open and close quickley (short timing) and move enough air, fuel and exhaust for the cylinder.
I have been ready for the TB for quiet a while myself. Wayne?
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moto
San Francisco Bay,
USA
Posts: 52
Enthusiast
02 Apr 2006 00:45 |
Wayne,
Can you allow for the complete removal of the secondary butterflies without the EFI light staying on?
Regards,
Derek
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NOJ84U
Missouri,
USA
Posts: 31
Enthusiast
03 Apr 2006 03:37 |
The light should go out after a hundred miles or so.
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Paul T
Toronto,
Canada
Posts: 50
Rocket III (04->)
04 Apr 2006 04:20 |
[edited]:
Moto,
If you are refering to the engine warning light it will go out after 3 cold starts if no problems are detected. Physical removal of the secondary butterflies alone will not trigger the light.
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Wayne Macdonald
Sydney,
Australia
Posts: 513
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
15 Apr 2006 00:34 |
Here are the dyno graphs from a Rocket III with Staintune pipes.
This first graph compares 20054 and 20050.
The bike had been fitted with the pipes and PCIII with the base 20050 tune loaded, and had been dyno tuned with this setup. The dealer had then loaded 20054 at the next service. Blue line is 20054, red line is 20050
http://www.TuneBoy.com.au.....0vs20054.jpg[/u]
The dealer thought they where helping as the bike didn't have the cat box and did have aftermarket pipes, this means 20054 should be loaded. They didn't tell the owner that they loaded a new map.
You can see that the dealers action robbed the bike of power because the PCIII mapping was adding trims for the 20050 tune not the 20054 tune.
I am not sure why Triumph do this but the 20053 and 20054 tunes close off the secondary throttle in the middle of the rev range.
The 20050 tune holds the secondary throttle partly closed to 4500RPM in first, second and third but opens it fully in 4th and 5th. To see what this does to the power we did a run with the power restriction in all gears. This allowed us to compare 1st gear power and 4th gear power on the 20050 tune. This next graph shows this.
http://www.TuneBoy.com.au.....4th_Gear.jpg[/u]
As you can see the power is held back until 4500RPM where it meets back up with the full power that is provided in 4th.
Another interesting graph is this next one. This shows the same two dyno runs but also shows the air fuel ratio.
From this you can see that the bike runs rich when in 1st gear. This is because the PCIII only sees the primary throttle position sensor, and because it sees 100% throttle it adds the trim for the 100% throttle zone. The problem is that the throttle is not fully open. The secondary throttle is restricting the air flow and thus makes the mixture go rich.
http://www.TuneBoy.com.au....._Gear_AF.jpg[/u]
Because the PCIII was a bit hard to remove in the time we had, we just loaded a zero map and started to tune with the TuneBoy program. The customer will remove the PCIII later.
This next graph shows the final TuneBoy result (blue line) compared with the PCIII mapping and 20050 tune (Red line) and the PCIII mapping and 20054 tune (Green line).
http://www.TuneBoy.com.au.....l_Result.jpg[/u]
You can see that some power was picked up throughout the range, but the important point is that this power will now be on tap in all gears.
We also took the opportunity to check the speedo and correct the speedo error.
.......... continued .............
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Wayne Macdonald
Sydney,
Australia
Posts: 513
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
15 Apr 2006 00:35 |
[edited]:
We corrected the speedo to remove the 7% error built into the system, we tested this by running the bike at 100kph and checking that the dyno said the speed was 100kph.
We also tested the speed limiter. I expected it to kick in at around 5700 but it didn't kick in until 6100. This was a side effect of the speedo being corrected.
To verify this we loaded a map that made the speedo read much higher. This caused the ECU to limit at just over 4,000 RPM.
So by just correcting the speedo you can increase the actual top speed of the bike.
This final graph shows the power the customer rode in with and the power he rode out with.
http://www.TuneBoy.com.au/images/HappyCamper.jpg
I am sure this bike is not the only one that has had a PCIII fitted and tuned on one base map, then had the base map changed by the dealer.
The power difference between the 20050 and 20054 tunes was not just a result of the PCIII being setup for the 20050. The 20050 makes more power than the 20053 or 20054 tunes.
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NOJ84U
Missouri,
USA
Posts: 31
Enthusiast
15 Apr 2006 04:22 |
Excellent results. FYI the links are dead however I have seen them on other sites in the last day or two. Any ideas when I can get my hands on one in the US?
That is also very interesting to know about the 20050 and 20054 tunes. I have an '06 R3 Classic and I had the dealer remap two weeks ago with one of Triumph's new tunes for the Classic model. They used the 20097 tune which the description was the same as the 20054. Since the remap the throttle hasn't felt as sharp. I have an undertank K&N, no cat and maddog pipes.
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Wayne Macdonald
Sydney,
Australia
Posts: 513
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
15 Apr 2006 09:27 |
[edited]:
The links don't work because I tried to use the underline, for some reason the [/u] is being appended to the link rather than stopping the underline, and because the post was too big for a single post I had to do it in two parts, this meant I could only go back and edit the second part of the post to correct the problem.
To see the links just click on them and remove the [/u] from the end
20054 also has far less ignition advance at part throttle.
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dave miles
Arizona,
USA
Posts: 219
Enthusiast
23 Jul 2006 01:55 |
have you been able to ditch the speed limiter completely?
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Wayne Macdonald
Sydney,
Australia
Posts: 513
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
24 Jul 2006 03:00 |
Yes.
The latest TuneEdit.exe (V3.0.10) allows you to set the speed limiter to anything you like.
The Rocket III is 218kph and the Rocket III Classic is 193kph.
If you change it to 300kph you don't have a speed limiter any more.
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Paul T
Toronto,
Canada
Posts: 50
Rocket III (04->)
24 Jul 2006 04:23 |
Does that mean my bike will slow down as it approaches 300 KPH?
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Cerberus
Connecticut,
USA
Posts: 5,163
Premier Member
Enthusiast
24 Jul 2006 04:33 |
HAHA..
as if!
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Rocky
Redditch,
United Kingdom
Posts: 38
Rocket III (04->)
27 Apr 2007 15:47 |
Hey i dont understand any of this techo stuff but if you can make it go faster let me have one ha ha!!
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William F Skees
Tomahawk WI,
USA
Posts: 1
Rocket III (04->)
08 Aug 2007 06:40 |
Bump...
considering getting the TuneBoy over the PCIII....The question I have is....Sure it works great and does way more than the PC III can.....but...given a dyno and some time... Can I tune it? I mean... i know you can....but how do i get my dealer or myself hip to it?
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Wayne Macdonald
Sydney,
Australia
Posts: 513
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
08 Aug 2007 15:16 |
What mods have you done to your bike ?
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NOJ84U
Missouri,
USA
Posts: 31
Enthusiast
09 Aug 2007 03:19 |
Get the TuneBoy first. One of Wayne's canned tunes will get you in the ballpark and much more power than the PCIII can. I couldn't find anyone willing in my area to custom tune with TuneBoy for less than $1K (they figured it would take a good 8 hours plus the learning curve), so I hooked up a PCIII and got a custom fuel map then imported it into TuneEdit, all for $250.
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