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Pete Smith
Oxford,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9
Daytona T595 (97-98)
17 Aug 2004 18:02 |
Has anyone out there with a t595 1997 had the sprag clutch go? if so has their been a recall on engines prior to #59---?
I am aware that their was a problem with 4th gear that may have required a recall but would the sprag clutch have been included?
Mine has just died and Triumph are not interested. given the fact that their were mods to engines post #59--- they have virtually admited a design fault but are not interested in rectifying the poor sods who have the older engine like myself.
Has anyone out there had similar problems as I feel I sould seek some legal advice?
As it stands I may as well throw the bike in the bin and by a Jap which I should have done in the first place.
Thanks in advance
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,815
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
17 Aug 2004 19:12 |
Your bike is five years out of the manufacturers warranty
at what point in time do you think that Triumph`s responsibilty as a manufacturer ends and your responsibilty as an owner begins ?
Look at it from a third parties perspective ...
1: Are you the original owner ?
2: Does the bike have a full service history ?
3: Did you buy the bike from a Triumph dealer ?
If you can answer yes to all three then great, but can you ?
The fact that you are aware that there have been issues with 4th gear would indicate to me that you have done some research prior to buying and I would guess you have bought a used bike privately in which case (sadly) it`s buyer beware 
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Lance Brown
Somewhere,
USA
Posts: 334
Daytona 955i (02)
17 Aug 2004 19:28 |
His profile does say:
Bike Details
Model: Daytona T595 (97-98)
Year: 1996
Colour: yellow
Purchased: 05/2003
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,815
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
17 Aug 2004 19:31 |
[edited]: Your bike is five years out of the manufacturers warranty
so no warranty then even if purchased from a dealer and presumably the condition of the bike was reflected in the price that was paid for it 
Out of interest have you received your recall notice yet ???
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Pete Smith
Oxford,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9
Daytona T595 (97-98)
17 Aug 2004 19:44 |
Yes I can say that it was bought from a dealer who has done all the regular servicing from new on it. In my defence I purchased the bike a year ago from them and have only just found out about this problem from this webb site. I still feel that regardless of how long the bike has been owned or by how many owners Triumph have an obligation to customers safety for every bike that they sell.
knowing that a design flaw was present on older engine numbered t595's they should honour the fixing of these engine to stop any possible fatal injuries caused through riding a bike with a known fault.
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Nick
Out in the garage,
United Kingdom
Posts: 6,160
Premier Member
Sprint ST (05->)
17 Aug 2004 23:08 |
Paul, pete does have a point.
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Lance Brown
Somewhere,
USA
Posts: 334
Daytona 955i (02)
18 Aug 2004 04:38 |
They are not required to do recall work after a certain amount of time has lapsed. TSB work can be denied once the warranty is out, it can be denied during the warranty as well, if the dealer feels you are not eligible (as in they can't see the problem). Once out of warranty, they might do things in goodwill. I have a noisy fuel regulator that keeps getting worse and the warranty is out. They don't want to budge and they have had issues with the regulators.
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,815
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
18 Aug 2004 08:53 |
[edited]: If you`re saying
that your bike has a safety related fault that could cause a fatal injury then that puts a completely different perspective on it and you need to seek professional legal advice asap and in the meantime refrain from riding your bike ...
My understanding is that if the spragg clutch fails the only fatality will be to the engine internals and not the rider and lets face it if you ride your bike with a known fault and then subsequently have an accident that could have been avoided who is to blame ???
Motorcycles by virtue of the fact they only have two wheels are inherintly dangerous but I`m sure Triumphs are no more dangerous to their riders wellbeing than any other motorcycle ...
What has your supplying dealer had to say about your situation ???
Did he know about this alleged fault and if so is he a Triumph dealer ???
Lance, a recall is a recall mate however I don`t understand the term "TSB work". It doesn`t matter wether the bike is twelve months or twelve years old it`s still a recall and the manufacturer has a duty of care to make sure the work is carried out asap at their expense and to the best of my knowledge there hasn`t been a recall issued on spragg clutches 
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Lance Brown
Somewhere,
USA
Posts: 334
Daytona 955i (02)
18 Aug 2004 16:22 |
It can deal with age. If someone buys a vehicle, it has a recall that same year and they wait 30 years to take it in, then by no means is the manufacturer required to fix it. Where are they supposed to get parts because they owner decided to wait? In the US, parts have to be available for a minimum of seven years. If the vehicle is seven years old and then there's a recall, then yes, the manufacturer is responsible. The owner does have a part to play to get the vehicle in to get the recall work performed in a timely manner. Some manufacturers put a deadline on when the recall notice ends. Typically they don't set a deadline, but the owner still has the responsibility to have it fixed in a timely manner. Waiting a decade from the notice is not timely.
While this doesn't pertain to you, you may have an equivalent law:
"Congress amended 49 U.S.C. Section 30120 (g)(1) of the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (in passing TREAD), to extend the time, from 8 years to 10, during which manufacturers of motor vehicles or motor vehicle equipment must remedy, without charge, safety-related defects and noncompliances with federal motor vehicle safety standards. The expanded period was a direct response to manufacturers' failure to adequately address the need for a recall in the Ford/Firestone cases. In changing the Act's original time limits, and requiring NHTSA to issue a new rule as to the reimbursement period, Congress clearly intended to expand consumers' rights with regard to both recalls and reimbursement."
TSB is Technical Service Bulletin. Basically some vehicles might exhibit this problem. The manufacturer issues these to save money on warranty work. Why have a technician determine what the problem is and then fix it, when they can say if the symptoms are this, then this is what needs to be replaced. A TSB is not a recall and they are not required to do these after the warranty is expired. Even in the warranty period, if the vehicle changes hands, they can refuse to do these as well. Used vehicles are just that. If there was a TSB on a noisy clutch and the TSB said to replace it and someone bought a used vehicle and then thought the clutch was noisy, the manufacturer could refuse the work, as it was not a recall and the person bought the car. The purchaser could have chosen not to buy the vehicle, but they did. The dealer really makes the determination if a TSB gets done or not though. If someone walks in and says do TSB XXXX on my vehicle, most of the time if the dealer can’t see/hear/experience the symptoms it doesn't get done, as not all vehicles have the problem.
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Lance Brown
Somewhere,
USA
Posts: 334
Daytona 955i (02)
18 Aug 2004 16:22 |
Unless the majority of the bikes had a sprag clutch failure, then a recall would not be issued. They may issue a TSB to inform the dealer of this potential problem. A TSB in no way shows fault and cannot be used to force them to fix it. If the TSB was issued before he purchased the bike without a factory warranty, then he really has no recourse for action. A certified used vehicle would be a different story. A TSB is typically done for the original owner, as the expectation was that it was suppose to work a certain way. Once it gets to the used market, that all changes. If a vehicle has a history of a certain problem(s) and someone bought a used one, they either knew what they were getting in to, or didn't do their homework. Look at used vehicle prices. New, you may have two vehicles that compete with each other in the market place and they sell for around the same price. Three years later, one might be worth considerably more then the other because the quality is higher. People are willing to pay more for a used car that has a higher quality, as the maintenance will be cheaper. The people that buy the other car are saving money upfront that will be used later to repair the vehicle.
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Pete Smith
Oxford,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9
Daytona T595 (97-98)
18 Aug 2004 16:39 |
Thanks Lance for your in depth reply their is plenty to ponder over.
My question to you all as I am no mechanic is, could a mechanical disaster happen whilst riding the bike through a duff spragg clutch failure? if their was a failure with the possibility of chunks of metal flying around inside the engine at speed, could this cause the rear wheel to lock?
I think I may have a case if their is a possibility of the rear wheel locking up?
I have not ridden the bike since this appeared and have no intention of doing so untill this mess is cleared up.
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Pete Smith
Oxford,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9
Daytona T595 (97-98)
18 Aug 2004 16:45 |
just as a note their has been plenty of evidence of losing 4th gear on these older engines, maybe I would do better trying to persue this fault then get them to replace the spragg clutch when the bikes in bits
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,815
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
18 Aug 2004 16:47 |
[edited]: I beleive that any failure of the spragg clutch
will result in you not being able to start your bike using the starter motor and will not cause the rear wheel to lock now if 4th gear go`s AWOL then that`s a different story altogether but then again 4th gear isn`t the problem is it ...
Who was the selling dealer and what have they said to you on this current situation ???
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Lance Brown
Somewhere,
USA
Posts: 334
Daytona 955i (02)
18 Aug 2004 17:03 |
Pete,
What does the dealer say? You have a better chance of getting Triumph to do something when the dealer makes the case for you. Manufacturers (believe it or not) do not trust what the customer says. If the dealer says we see no signs of abuse and the part just failed, we know the complete history of the bike, yadda yadda yadda, a manufacturer is more willing to do something. A manufacturer is also more willing to do something for the original owner, as that is where they made their money. A dealer still has some pull though, as without them, the manufacturer would not have a sales outlet. A good dealer can get almost anything covered.
In the US, if you pull the attorney card, you just killed all communication. Basically they will no longer talk to you and your attorney must talk to theirs. Using the legal system is the long way around things, even small claims. If Triumph did decide to accept your challenge, they have legal experts pleading their case and you only have yours. When you mention other bikes having the same problem, you need to bring proof. Without the proof, the judge will be forced to dismiss it. So now it just comes down to you against them, and you are the ones that has to prove your side. They could win without saying a word. They could use tactics like, you bought it used, and do you know how it was treated? You can't use what the dealer told you, as that is hearsay; so the dealer would have to be present. They could use the lack of firsthand knowledge of the history and say that yes, we have seen a few sprag clutch failures, but those were only in cases in which there was abuse. So as you can see, it would be an uphill battle. Your only hope would be that the repair would cost less then going to court. In cases like that, it's cheaper to just pay. Think of it as a legal form of blackmail. Of course of they do decide to go to court and you lose, they could ask that you pay their legal bills.
All of the above is how it works in the US. I don't know about your legal system. Needless to say, that should give you some food for thought. Another possibility would be to try to get them to donate the parts and the dealer to subsidize all or part of the labor. Then all three parties make out. Triumph is out a little money, but makes the dealer and customer happy. The dealer might be out some money, but the customer is happy. You might be out some money, but you're happy.
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Pete Smith
Oxford,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9
Daytona T595 (97-98)
18 Aug 2004 17:38 |
Thanks again for all your advice. The dealer is Hughenden M40, who have so far been very helpfull and are still in contact with Triumph, I have been waiting to hear from them.
I am aware that threads on this site have indicated that Triumph have been aware of the 4th gear problems on earlier engines and rectified the problem on later engine no's, fixing older engines without cost to the customer (in certain cases?).
I think maybe if I persue this as a known fault then have them change the spragg clutch at the same time I may stand a better chance. At the moment I have limited funds which is why an engine strip down is out of the question.
Got to go and bath the RugRat, catch up later
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,815
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
18 Aug 2004 18:22 |
I wish you luck
but from what you`ve said you don`t have a problem with the 4th gear which if my understanding is correct was never a recall and was only being dealt with on a "goodwill policy" basis by the factory on those bikes that suffered the problem ...
IMHO being honest and upfront will stand you in better stead than trying to get the spragg clutch repaired on the spurious basis of repairing a 4th gear fault that your bike clearly doesn`t have. I very much doubt that Hughenden M40 will want to become involved in this dishonest act either. At the end of the day they are a reputable Triumph dealer and it would be more than their franchise was worth to be come embroiled in anything underhand
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Pete Smith
Oxford,
United Kingdom
Posts: 9
Daytona T595 (97-98)
18 Aug 2004 21:57 |
Paul I give up mate, I'm just trying all my options of getting a bike that I really love back on the road. I earn £5.20 an hour and am at my wits end with the costs. I would never put a dealers reputation on the line especially one thats trying it's best to help me.
(The advert will read. Going to a good home One Triumph T595 12000 miles, needs attention, Cost £4200 will except bugger all as thats all it's worth now).
Ps Do you work for Triumph customer service?
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Lance Brown
Somewhere,
USA
Posts: 334
Daytona 955i (02)
18 Aug 2004 22:05 |
Pete,
IMO it doesn't matter what you earn. Your expectation was to get a working and reliable bike. It sounds like that hasn't happened. So it comes down to you really need to get the dealer on your side. You've had the bike since May 2003, what was the mileage? When did the problem surface and what was the mileage? Sometimes you have recourse in those factors alone. What were the conditions of the sale? What did the salesperson tell you about the bike? Most importantly, what did ask?
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,815
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
19 Aug 2004 09:02 |
Pete
No I don`t work for Triumph but I am in the Motor Trade so understand how dealers work and the way manufacturers policy operates when dealing with goodwill claims. You usually only get one chance when it comes to a goodwill claim and there are certain parameters that need to be met hence the original owner from new full service history questions etc etc
The one thing that will completely fook it up for you is if you start to threaten legal action because as Lance quite rightly says that is when the talking stops at least between you, your dealer and the factory and if the legal people do move in you are very unlikely to get anything out of it other than a legal bill...
From what you have said and in my opinion your best tack would be to continue the dialogue with Hughenden M40 afterall they have been a Triumph dealer from the start so cannot claim not to be familiar with early T595`s and their reliability issues and they did as you say originally sell and service the bike ...
I fully understand how you feel as I see similar issues to yours on an almost daily basis with my work. Believe me mate honesty is the best policy but you must keep up the pressure on Hughenden to help you out with this 
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Homertrix
South Bucks,
United Kingdom
Posts: 8,721
Premier Member
Daytona T595 (97-98)
19 Aug 2004 13:23 |
Not read all the thread, but...
Pete, when did you buy the bike? Did you buy it from a dealer? Even if a dealer does not expressly offer a warranty, if a secondhand vehicle develops a fault with a reasonable period of time, you are covered by the sale of goods act.
I once had a GPz305 blow its big end 1 month after buying it from a dealer. The dealer replaced it (and fitted it) free of charge.
The problem is the definition "Reasonable period of time" as its a bit woolly. Trading standards did go on record recently for kitchen applicances that 5 years is a reasonable period of time.
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John Ponting
Herts,
United Kingdom
Posts: 50
Tiger (01-06)
28 Sep 2004 16:16 |
Wish I had time to read all of the above but ...
There is a well documented and recognised problem with sprag clutches on earlier triple motors, certainly the carbureter versions. I was amongst the first to have a second warranty replacement on the same motor. Simple fix via the access panel on top of cases.
I have also heard the mechanic who fixed both of mine tell a customer "don't see many of these fail".
I was also present when the first customer bike with cossie cases blew the sprag - engine out, split cases etc Can be very expensive now that bikes are out of waranty.
Recently (but sadly) diagnosed a blown sprag clutch for a Daytona rider stopped by the side of the road.
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Fret.
South.,
United Kingdom
Posts: 36,244
Premier Member
Tiger 1050 (07->)
29 Sep 2004 13:26 |
Sprag clutches on the early model was not a aproblem. Triumph told me so.
Also went pop on the T595, before I got it. So also not a problem, as Triumph told me.
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james porter 3rd
pittsburgh,
USA
Posts: 68
Daytona T595 (97-98)
22 Aug 2005 01:31 |
warranty
Triumph reads these threads, I had a legal battle with triumph and won it's called the Lemon Law in the United States
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,815
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
22 Aug 2005 10:06 |
I wish we had that over here
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Matt Green
knoxville,
USA
Posts: 24
Daytona 955i (99-01)
23 Aug 2005 03:22 |
Pete- I feel your pain !! bieng a rider since I was old enough to ride , and having many wonderfull Jap bikes (sorry about the lack of poiltical correctness on that as us americans are so easily offended now a days it seems ) LOng story short( as I could ramble about Triumphs customer service till I turned blue). I purchased a 01 Daytona w/ 1,900 miles. still under warranty I had a wonderfull couple of years of riding. 9,243 miles later boom , pow no more motor. Two months out of warranty (had not rode all winter) and second ride of the year. medium RPM between 3rd n 4th and ... well a mess. I just now got a new motor!! and haveyet to get over the pain. !!!... My dealear tried (to his credit!.. to get Triumph USA or Triumph to do something! Hell anything would have been nice ! NOTHING!!! Sorry SOL.(except buy a new motor for $9,700) Damn I paid $8,00 for the bike!!! I guess Im just venting!!I was lucky enough to have a back up during the down time. PLEASE !! dont get me wrong I love my Triumph and considering it was the last of the (most beautiful daytonas ever made!! (Jaded) . I plan on keeping and riding it for a long time! BUT I dont think I will ever get a new one, and its not because of what happen (even though I do think they had a problem w/ thier connecting rods. Talked to two other people that the same thing happen also .same year and everything but whatever could be dumb luck. Customer service needs some improvement though cant say that they ever did one thing to make me come back! Post Script-- I would not be on this site if I didnt appreciate the feed back and unbelievible help from all you guys!!! I go to many other sites relating to the other bikes I own. As far as knowlege and love for thier machines Triumph OWNERS are the best!!! bar none  cheers-M
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Akira
Northants,
United Kingdom
Posts: 103
Speed Triple (05->)
19 Oct 2005 23:53 |
Wonderful Jap bikes?
Try asking Suzuki about undersized dogs on gsxr750's!
My last Suzi was under four years old at 11000m, so out of warranty. I bought it second hand with full history at a main dealer. Six months later, 2nd gear starts popping out of mesh. Would I expect Suzuki to fix it? why would they? Like I said its out of warranty.
Bikes get thrashed, bikes go wrong. Its just a fact of life.
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Bob Southgate
London,
United Kingdom
Posts: 640
Sprint ST (02-04)
20 Oct 2005 15:36 |
There is nothing to lose from contacting a manufacturer when the bike is out of warranty and has suffered a major component failure. The worst thing they can say at that point is "Sorry, its out of warranty". You might even get a positive response! Many years ago, I had a Kawasaki GPZ900R. It was an '85 model, and it was one of the ones with the small oil feeds to the cylinder head. The oil lines, one camshaft and followers were replaced under warranty with the updated parts.
5 years later, same bike with almost 60000 miles on the clock. Whilst servicing it, I discovered pitting on some of the cam lobes. A new pair of cams and 8 followers was priced at £490. So I wrote to kawasaki UK, explained the problem to them, and I expected a reply saying "sorry, no can do". To my surprise, they asked me to take the bike into my local dealer for them to inspect the bike. I knew the dealer well and they were happy to take my word on it, and they informed Kawasaki of their "findings".
The outcome?? A new set of 8 followers and 2 cams at half price, £245 instead of £490, was a great result.
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Isaac Hunt
Wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 26,815
Premier Member
Speed Triple (95-96)
20 Oct 2005 19:18 |
Result indeed
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dave
wiltshire,
United Kingdom
Posts: 97
Speed Triple T509 (97-98)
02 Mar 2006 10:51 |
There's no doubt about it, treat a customer fair and they WILL come back...shit on them and they won't !!
Kawasaki shit on me many years ago ..and I was a Kawasaki fan until then..but never bought another Kawasaki since then ( 18 years ).
I've had excellant service from Triumph and my dealer ( Bill Smiths Motors, Chester ) so if I buy a new bike...it's the Triumph range that will get my biggest attention
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